Comments on: Vista Symlinks Revisited… http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/ Connecting Ideas Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:36:49 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8-bleeding-edge hourly 1 By: Rambler: 'neosmart.net' (: 791) http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/#comment-48871 Rambler: 'neosmart.net' (: 791) Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:38:45 +0000 http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285#comment-48871 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] Vista Symlinks Revisited&hellip; at The NeoSmart FilesNext on Neosmart, “Windows Not Based On X11,... ... ... NeoSmart Files is a subdivision of the non-profit NeoSmart Technologies. http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revis... - - neosmart.net ( 2) [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] Vista Symlinks Revisited&hellip; at The NeoSmart FilesNext on Neosmart, “Windows Not Based On X11,… … … NeoSmart Files is a subdivision of the non-profit NeoSmart Technologies. http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revis... - - neosmart.net ( 2) [...]

]]> By: Using a USB drive for saves - OOTP Developments Forums http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/#comment-14874 Using a USB drive for saves - OOTP Developments Forums Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:25:42 +0000 http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285#comment-14874 [...] in Vista? Yes and no! http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/ __________________ [...] [...] in Vista? Yes and no! http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/ __________________ [...]

]]> By: Tom http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/#comment-14674 Tom Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:29:25 +0000 http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285#comment-14674 <em>> symlinks should implemented in the file system driver (as in *nix)</em> There is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding in this thread. I'll try and summarize the real state of Vista symlinks. First, the basics: <blockquote> <strong>SYM-links</strong> are <strong>CLIENT</strong> evaluated - just like *nix. New to Windows Vista. <strong>HARD-links</strong> are <strong>FILESYSTEM</strong> evaluated (i.e. NTFS, EXT2, etc).  Windows has supported these for years, since NT4 or Windows 2000 - I don't remember which right now. </blockquote> <strong>Why do symlinks only work Vista to Vista ?</strong> Because symlinks are client evaulated, the client's OS must be updated to understand them. Since the changes required are extensive (kernel, IOManager, FS utilities, explorer shell, apps, Win32 APIs...) it is highly unlikely that any Windows prior to Vista will ever be made symlink aware. Therefore there was no real point in exposing them through the SMB-1 protocol, since all Vista machines will negotiate SMB-2 to communicate. <strong>Why don't they work with *nix clients:?</strong> There are two parts to this, depending on the protocol you are talking about: <blockquote> <strong>NFS (i.e. *nix NFS client + Windows NFS Server)</strong> Firstly, Windows NFS server does not ship in Vista anyway. Second, there are solid technical reasons making it hard to update the Microsoft NFS server to use native Windows symlinks. The reason this change hasn't happened yet, aside from the obvious fact that no Vista based Windows Server has yet shipped, is as always due to resources, time, priorities. There is no evil conspiracy. This work will likely happen in some future Windows Server release. That said, the Microsoft NFS client (ships in Vista) and NFS Server (R2 / SFU) do support *nix symlinks over NFS. I.e. a Linux client can connect to a Windows NFS server and happily create/use symlinks. However, those symlinks will not be usable by SMB clients or native Windows apps, since currently the MS NFS server uses it's own symlink storage format (due to the previous lack of native Windows symlink support). <strong>SMB (i.e. *nix SMB client + Windows SMB Server)</strong> As outlined above, symlinks are only exposed over the SMB-2 protocol, since no Windows SMB-1 only client can process them anyway. When/if SMB CLIENTs for Linux, Mac, BSD etc are updated to support SMB-2, they will be able to make full use of native Windows symlinks. </blockquote> Hope this helps clarify things. > symlinks should implemented in the file system driver (as in *nix)

There is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding in this thread. I’ll try and summarize the real state of Vista symlinks.

First, the basics:

SYM-links are CLIENT evaluated - just like *nix. New to Windows Vista.

HARD-links are FILESYSTEM evaluated (i.e. NTFS, EXT2, etc).  Windows has supported these for years, since NT4 or Windows 2000 - I don’t remember which right now.

Why do symlinks only work Vista to Vista ?

Because symlinks are client evaulated, the client’s OS must be updated to understand them. Since the changes required are extensive (kernel, IOManager, FS utilities, explorer shell, apps, Win32 APIs…) it is highly unlikely that any Windows prior to Vista will ever be made symlink aware. Therefore there was no real point in exposing them through the SMB-1 protocol, since all Vista machines will negotiate SMB-2 to communicate.

Why don’t they work with *nix clients:?

There are two parts to this, depending on the protocol you are talking about:

NFS (i.e. *nix NFS client + Windows NFS Server)

Firstly, Windows NFS server does not ship in Vista anyway. Second, there are solid technical reasons making it hard to update the Microsoft NFS server to use native Windows symlinks.

The reason this change hasn’t happened yet, aside from the obvious fact that no Vista based Windows Server has yet shipped, is as always due to resources, time, priorities. There is no evil conspiracy.

This work will likely happen in some future Windows Server release.

That said, the Microsoft NFS client (ships in Vista) and NFS Server (R2 / SFU) do support *nix symlinks over NFS. I.e. a Linux client can connect to a Windows NFS server and happily create/use symlinks. However, those symlinks will not be usable by SMB clients or native Windows apps, since currently the MS NFS server uses it’s own symlink storage format (due to the previous lack of native Windows symlink support).

SMB (i.e. *nix SMB client + Windows SMB Server)

As outlined above, symlinks are only exposed over the SMB-2 protocol, since no Windows SMB-1 only client can process them anyway.

When/if SMB CLIENTs for Linux, Mac, BSD etc are updated to support SMB-2, they will be able to make full use of native Windows symlinks.

Hope this helps clarify things.

]]> By: mattjs http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/#comment-14244 mattjs Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:50:15 +0000 http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285#comment-14244 To <a href="http://nospam-cobaltsoftware.net/">Steve Gray</a>. Point is it sounds like a hack - symlinks should implemented in the file system driver (as in *nix) and it sounds like it was hacked into the OS (kernel) somewhere else in typical Microsoft style.  (Perhaps so they could put another "feature" onto the Window Vista Shrinkwrap Box to justify the spin to their customers that they should upgrade.)  Likewise they probably deliberately didn't put the feature into the original NTFS design (and drivers) so as not to been seen copying leading alternative operating systems.  FINIS. What else would anyone really expect form Microsoft!? To Steve Gray. Point is it sounds like a hack - symlinks should implemented in the file system driver (as in *nix) and it sounds like it was hacked into the OS (kernel) somewhere else in typical Microsoft style.  (Perhaps so they could put another “feature” onto the Window Vista Shrinkwrap Box to justify the spin to their customers that they should upgrade.)  Likewise they probably deliberately didn’t put the feature into the original NTFS design (and drivers) so as not to been seen copying leading alternative operating systems.  FINIS.

What else would anyone really expect form Microsoft!?

]]> By: Slo-Tech | Novosti v Vista jedru http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/#comment-13418 Slo-Tech | Novosti v Vista jedru Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:49:23 +0000 http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285#comment-13418 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] policija™ registriran: 24.12.2001 Poslano: 22.02.2007 22:44:32 Nekaj o symlinkih v visti Vista Symlinks Revisited In fantje pomirite se prosim dajte eno novico o visti sami ohranit čisto.Troll, troll, troll [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] policija™ registriran: 24.12.2001 Poslano: 22.02.2007 22:44:32 Nekaj o symlinkih v visti Vista Symlinks Revisited In fantje pomirite se prosim dajte eno novico o visti sami ohranit čisto.Troll, troll, troll [...]

]]> By: Nabble - symbolic links ( ln -s command) http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/#comment-13374 Nabble - symbolic links ( ln -s command) Wed, 21 Feb 2007 00:49:33 +0000 http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285#comment-13374 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] of some silly new shell API to access symlink functionality rather than regular filesystem calls. http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/ http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/19/018256 (It is possible that I am misinterpreting what [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] of some silly new shell API to access symlink functionality rather than regular filesystem calls. http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/ http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/19/018256 (It is possible that I am misinterpreting what [...]

]]> By: Неполиткорректный виртуал's Friends http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/#comment-12636 Неполиткорректный виртуал's Friends Tue, 06 Feb 2007 09:24:23 +0000 http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285#comment-12636 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] trin_3_trin 2:28pvista symlinks Windows Vista symlinks. Столько лет прошло, и всё там же. Про WinFS тоже как-то [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] trin_3_trin 2:28pvista symlinks Windows Vista symlinks. Столько лет прошло, и всё там же. Про WinFS тоже как-то [...]

]]> By: friends http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/#comment-12600 friends Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:44:13 +0000 http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285#comment-12600 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] trin_3_trinWindows Vista symlinks. Столько лет прошло, и всё там же. Про WinFS тоже как-то замолчали. Что-то, похоже, близится закат. LinkLeave a comment [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] trin_3_trinWindows Vista symlinks. Столько лет прошло, и всё там же. Про WinFS тоже как-то замолчали. Что-то, похоже, близится закат. LinkLeave a comment [...]

]]> By: Френдлента http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/#comment-12577 Френдлента Mon, 05 Feb 2007 13:10:18 +0000 http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285#comment-12577 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] Windows Vista symlinks. Столько лет прошло, и всё там же. Про WinFS тоже как-то замолчали. Что-то, похоже, близится закат. (comment on this) artur_s [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] Windows Vista symlinks. Столько лет прошло, и всё там же. Про WinFS тоже как-то замолчали. Что-то, похоже, близится закат. (comment on this) artur_s [...]

]]> By: SlimShaggy http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/#comment-11988 SlimShaggy Fri, 26 Jan 2007 22:01:04 +0000 http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285#comment-11988 What's the problem anyway? Those who want server-side link resolution and support for pre-Vista clients are free to use junctions and hard links instead of symbolic links! What’s the problem anyway? Those who want server-side link resolution and support for pre-Vista clients are free to use junctions and hard links instead of symbolic links!

]]> By: Morten http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/#comment-11844 Morten Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:23:07 +0000 http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285#comment-11844 Hehehe, *nix lovers are hilarious. Thanks for cheering me up this cold monday morning. Hehehe, *nix lovers are hilarious. Thanks for cheering me up this cold monday morning.

]]> By: Windows Višta ir kita #17 « Paranormalaus pasaulio užeiga http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/#comment-10366 Windows Višta ir kita #17 « Paranormalaus pasaulio užeiga Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:15:44 +0000 http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285#comment-10366 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] Vista Symlinks Revisited… [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] Vista Symlinks Revisited… [...]

]]> By: vista symlinks - Google Search http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/#comment-9392 vista symlinks - Google Search Sun, 10 Dec 2006 08:09:09 +0000 http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285#comment-9392 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] [...]

]]> By: HCC Vlaanderen - vista symlinks bekeken - hcc!vlaanderen forum http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/#comment-8685 HCC Vlaanderen - vista symlinks bekeken - hcc!vlaanderen forum Mon, 04 Dec 2006 13:37:41 +0000 http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285#comment-8685 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] vista symlinks bekeken - 2006/11/19 10:54 Dit zou een van de mooie features in vista moeten geworden zijn. Volgens het engelstalig artikel blijkt de implementatie in Vista maar half zo goed te zijn, zodat de bruikbaarheid ervan beperkt blijft. Wie dus symbolic links verwacht zoals deze al zo lang bestaan in linux/unix komt half bedrogen uit. Je kan het hooguit een evolutie op de junctions noemen die in w2k/xp zitten.De auteur stelt dat de symlink api onvolledig is en gevoelig uitgebreid mag worden.Meer info: http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285 [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] vista symlinks bekeken - 2006/11/19 10:54 Dit zou een van de mooie features in vista moeten geworden zijn. Volgens het engelstalig artikel blijkt de implementatie in Vista maar half zo goed te zijn, zodat de bruikbaarheid ervan beperkt blijft. Wie dus symbolic links verwacht zoals deze al zo lang bestaan in linux/unix komt half bedrogen uit. Je kan het hooguit een evolutie op de junctions noemen die in w2k/xp zitten.De auteur stelt dat de symlink api onvolledig is en gevoelig uitgebreid mag worden.Meer info: http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285 [...]

]]> By: Welche Linux Distribution? - Seite 2 - Gsmfree Board http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/vista-symlinks-revisited/#comment-8635 Welche Linux Distribution? - Seite 2 - Gsmfree Board Sun, 03 Dec 2006 23:42:21 +0000 http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285#comment-8635 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] Was die "Bequemlichkeit" angelangt ist XP oki, aber sobald man anfngt bissl was abseits der gewhnlichen "Usecases" zu machen oder einfach - die Nase voll hat sich immer bevormunden zu lassen, sprich alles nach dem MS-Weg zu machen - feststellt das viele Programme abseits der Standardinstallation (ich sag nur andere Shell, Verzeichnisse heien anders, Profileordner liegt woanders etc.) usw. Mist bauen - anspruchsvollere Aufgaben (Skripting, Administration etc.) zu erledigen hat - unter Windows schonmal versucht einen Dateinamen wie "C:del *.mp3" anzulegen? unter *nix geht das.... und ich benamse meine Audiodateien gern wie der Titel original auch heisst.... zustzlich zum korrektem Tag. (btw: der Track heisst "Marco V - C:Del *.mp3") - sich aufregt das so ein Rotz wie Moviemaker und Co. dabei sind, aber von Haus aus kein vernnftiger Task-/Processmanager, Filemanager, grep, awk etc. - lieber mount points anstelle von "Laufwerksbuchstaben" htte -> schon mal vor einer Neuinstallation eine Partition eingefgt, also anstelle bisher: C: System D: Install E: Files -> C: System D: Swap E: Install F: Files Viel Spa! -> Pfade ndern hoch 3. - ach und junction/reparse points sowie links werden zwar mittlerweile "untersttzt", aber wie weder im Explorer noch sonstwo... nur per Dateisystem und per cmd-befehl... unter Vista haben sie anscheinend was gelernt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS_junction_point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS_symbolic_link EDIT: MS hats schon wieder verkackt... unglaublich. Immer und immer wieder dieses halbgare Zeug! => http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285 fngt man an Windows zu verfluchen.... leider habe ich fr viele Programme einfach keinen Ersatz, so da ich immer zweigleisig fahren mte/mu.. __________________ Wie man richtig fragt. The cynic knows love is a state of mind and can never fully exist, the cynic hopes to be proved wrong. - Sean Hughes ...NO BITCHES NECESSARY MOVEMENT. Gendert von Falcone (30-11-2006 um 13:10 Uhr). [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] Was die "Bequemlichkeit" angelangt ist XP oki, aber sobald man anfngt bissl was abseits der gewhnlichen "Usecases" zu machen oder einfach - die Nase voll hat sich immer bevormunden zu lassen, sprich alles nach dem MS-Weg zu machen - feststellt das viele Programme abseits der Standardinstallation (ich sag nur andere Shell, Verzeichnisse heien anders, Profileordner liegt woanders etc.) usw. Mist bauen - anspruchsvollere Aufgaben (Skripting, Administration etc.) zu erledigen hat - unter Windows schonmal versucht einen Dateinamen wie "C:del *.mp3" anzulegen? unter *nix geht das…. und ich benamse meine Audiodateien gern wie der Titel original auch heisst…. zustzlich zum korrektem Tag. (btw: der Track heisst "Marco V - C:Del *.mp3") - sich aufregt das so ein Rotz wie Moviemaker und Co. dabei sind, aber von Haus aus kein vernnftiger Task-/Processmanager, Filemanager, grep, awk etc. - lieber mount points anstelle von "Laufwerksbuchstaben" htte -> schon mal vor einer Neuinstallation eine Partition eingefgt, also anstelle bisher: C: System D: Install E: Files -> C: System D: Swap E: Install F: Files Viel Spa! -> Pfade ndern hoch 3. - ach und junction/reparse points sowie links werden zwar mittlerweile "untersttzt", aber wie weder im Explorer noch sonstwo… nur per Dateisystem und per cmd-befehl… unter Vista haben sie anscheinend was gelernt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS_junction_point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS_symbolic_link EDIT: MS hats schon wieder verkackt… unglaublich. Immer und immer wieder dieses halbgare Zeug! => http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/285 fngt man an Windows zu verfluchen…. leider habe ich fr viele Programme einfach keinen Ersatz, so da ich immer zweigleisig fahren mte/mu.. __________________ Wie man richtig fragt. The cynic knows love is a state of mind and can never fully exist, the cynic hopes to be proved wrong. - Sean Hughes …NO BITCHES NECESSARY MOVEMENT. Gendert von Falcone (30-11-2006 um 13:10 Uhr). [...]

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