Dual-boot: Vista and Ubuntu, 2 hard disks

[toomuchjustin]

The thing is, I don't think Grub4Dos is meant to locate Grub with those commands.

Well, I'm pretty sure Grub4Dos is supposed to use "find" the same was Grub does. It searches all the partitions for the file specified. I know Grub4Dos gave me the right answer for /NST/menu.lst (telling me it's on my Vista partition). So find works in Grub4Dos, it just doesn't see any files on the ext3 partitions...

But you shouldn't relate that back to NeoGrub not being able to read ext3 partitions, because I know for a fact it can, because it does on mine.

I'm not doubting that it works on your system... but just as a question, are you running NeoGrub from the Vista 64 bootloader? Doing some google searches I found anecdotal evidence that Vista x64 users have trouble using other tools that read ext3. So maybe there's some incompatibility between Vista x64 and most existing code that reads ext3? It wouldn't surprise me; I don't think anyone at Microsoft would lose much sleep over it...

Anyhow, I'm glad you finally got it working...despite choosing not to try what I suggested (which would have worked, though, I'm quite sure...)! :lol:

I'm sure it would have! And if I'd been smart enough to follow it to the T in the first place, I probably would have gotten it all worked out with less pain... But no, I had to do it my way...

 

[Coolname007]

Well, I'm pretty sure Grub4Dos is supposed to use "find" the same was Grub does. It searches all the partitions for the file specified. I know Grub4Dos gave me the right answer for /NST/menu.lst (telling me it's on my Vista partition). So find works in Grub4Dos, it just doesn't see any files on the ext3 partitions...

hmm...it could be then that NeoGrub finds its own menu.lst, just like the Ubuntu Grub finds its own menu.lst! But then again, that's only an educated guess, and until I know for sure from CG that that is the case, I can only suspect that was your problem. But it certainly seems like to me that NeoGrub is unable to find an Ubuntu menu.lst with that command at least, though it can find its own menu.lst...

I'm not doubting that it works on your system... but just as a question, are you running NeoGrub from the Vista 64 bootloader? Doing some google searches I found anecdotal evidence that Vista x64 users have trouble using other tools that read ext3. So maybe there's some incompatibility between Vista x64 and most existing code that reads ext3? It wouldn't surprise me; I don't think anyone at Microsoft would lose much sleep over it...

No, I'm using Vista 32-bit...and so now I will ask you the same question! :brows: Are you using 64-bit Vista? If so, then I can understand why you asked, but if not...then how could that possible be the cause of your problem? :lol: Again, I think NeoGrub can only locate its own menu.lst, and not the normal Grub's...

Cheers and good night! I am going to bed now, and maybe in the morning, I will PM Guru about this question, to hear what he has to say...

If you have any more questions, then by all means post, and we will try to answer them as best as we can.

-Coolname007

 

[toomuchjustin]

No, I'm using Vista 32-bit...and so now I will ask you the same question! :brows: Are you using 64-bit Vista?

Yes, I am running 64-bit Vista, and that's why I asked! I'm not going to abandon my own pet theory until I absolutely have to... Right now I'd say my working hypothesis is: Grub4Dos cannot read ext3 partitions from within Vista 64-bit, even if it is merely called by Vista 64-bit's bootloader.

If I'm right, that might be a problem for some users of Vista 64-bit and EasyBCD. That's because when you use the "add entry" feature and click the "Grub not installed box," EasyBCD installs NeoGrub with the following C:\NST\menu.lst:

# NeoSmart NeoGrub Bootloader Configuration File
#
# This is the NeoGrub configuration file, and should be located at C:\NST\menu.lst
# Please see the EasyBCD Documentation for information on how to create/modify entries:
# EasyBCD Documentation Home - NeoSmart Technologies Wiki

find --set-root --ignore-floppies /boot/grub/menu.lst
configfile /boot/grub/menu.lst

# All your boot are belong to NeoSmart!

At least, that's what EasyBCD did automatically in my case. As you can see from the commands, this menu.lst tells grub4dos to look for the partition that has /boot/grub/menu.lst, set it as the root, and then load that configfile and follow all its commands. On Vista 32-bit, that should work fine (except that it might be necessary to tinker with /boot/grub/menu.lst a bit--I'm not sure grub4dos supports UUID).

However, if I am correct, in grub4dos running under Vista 64-bit, both those commands can never work because grub4dos cannot read files from ext3 partitions. No amount of tinkering with /boot/grub/menu.lst will help! Grub4Dos cannot find the partition on which menu.lst is located; it cannot read menu.lst; and even if you were to copy the commands manually from /boot/grub/menu.lst into C:\NST\menu.lst (which I tried), grub4dos would not be able to load the kernel file from /boot because it cannot read from that partition! So the only way to use grub4dos with Vista 64-bit is to chainload a system, either from another disk's MBR or from the PBR of another partition.

Of course, that's all idle speculation until it's been verified by finding some other people with the same problem.

 

[Coolname007]

I just PMed Guru about the issue, so we should be getting an answer to that question soon...

But I am almost 100% positive that NeoGrub can not find the regular Grub's menu.lst, but can only locate its own menu.lst, which is what gave you the idea that NeoGrub can't read ext3 partitions, even though I know it can... I also questioned him about whether NeoGrub can use entries copied over from the Ubuntu menu.lst, which I don't believe is possible, so we should be getting an answer to that question soon, as well...

-Coolname007

 

[JustinW]

Grub4Dos cannot read ext3 partitions from within Vista 64-bit, even if it is merely called by Vista 64-bit's bootloader.

It is not from within Vista. Vista can't read linux formatted partitions. Period. It doesn't have anything to do with 32 or 64 bit. Both versions use the same bootmgr bootloader. You can have both 32 and 64 bit versions if you wish on the same system.

The lack of being able to read ext3 partitions from your description above is why I recommended ext2 for your filesystem. I have tested and used grub4dos with ext2, fat32, and ntfs. Those are the only filesystems I am sure 100% will work as expected.

Now back to NeoGrub. It is just like grub as described in the NeoGrub documentation in the wiki with some modifications, so yes the standard grub commands from Ubuntu's menu.lst will work. The uuid lines are what may or may not work. They are nice when they do work cause instead of telling grub where to look your giving it an exact volume serial number. Using this instead of root allowed you to use the same menu.lst without modifications.

Cool, CG doesn't accept support inquiries via PM. Look at his sig for verification. He will post I'm sure if he has anything to say here in this thread.

Hope that helps clarify things.

 

[Coolname007]

It is not from within Vista. Vista can't read linux formatted partitions. Period. It doesn't have anything to do with 32 or 64 bit. Both versions use the same bootmgr bootloader. You can have both 32 and 64 bit versions if you wish on the same system.

The lack of being able to read ext3 partitions from your description above is why I recommended ext2 for your filesystem. I have tested and used grub4dos with ext2, fat32, and ntfs. Those are the only filesystems I am sure 100% will work as expected.

Now back to NeoGrub. It is just like grub as described in the NeoGrub documentation in the wiki with some modifications, so yes the standard grub commands from Ubuntu's menu.lst will work. The uuid lines are what may or may not work. They are nice when they do work cause instead of telling grub where to look your giving it an exact volume serial number. Using this instead of root allowed you to use the same menu.lst without modifications.

Cool, CG doesn't accept support inquiries via PM. Look at his sig for verification. He will post I'm sure if he has anything to say here in this thread.

Hope that helps clarify things.

I just forwarded CG's response to my PM to toomuchjustin, but have decided to simply post it here as well...

Here it is:

Originally Posted by Coolname007
Hi again, CG.

I would like to ask you a couple simple question about a curious situation that arose with one of the new users on the EasyBCD Support forum (thread came be found here > Dual-boot: Vista and Ubuntu, 2 hard disks - Page 2 - The NeoSmart Forums )...

By checking that box titled "Grub isn't installed to the bootsector" under the Linux tab in EasyBCD, it created its own menu.lst, located at C:/NST/menu.lst, instead of using the Ubuntu one on the Ubuntu partition! :S I was under the impression that checking that box would install a version of NeoGrub that uses the Ubuntu menu.lst, and would not install a NeoGrub menu.lst. Is this the case, or does NeoGrub create a menu.lst no matter which method you use to install NeoGrub? :wtf:

And a couple more questions...
Can NeoGrub locate Ubuntu's menu.lst, or can it only locate NeoGrub's menu.lst? Can entries in the Ubuntu menu.lst be copied into the NeoGrub menu.lst, and work...or is it not possible to mix NeoGrub and the standard Grub, like I thought? Also, NeoGrub can read a menu.lst on a ext3 partition, correct?

Looking forward to the reply.

-Coolname007

NeoGrub *ALWAYS* makes a menu.lst for itself. This menu.lst may sometimes act as a pointer to Ubuntu's menu.lst though, via the NeoGrub "configfile" command.

You can copy and paste from the Ubuntu menu.lst to NeoGrub's without a problem - except the "uuid" command is not supported, you need to use the hd(x,y) command instead.

NeoGrub has no problem reading/accessing ext3 partitions. __________________
Mahmoud Al-Qudsi, Director



I'm sorry but I do not accept support requests via IM, email, or personal messages

[Join us on Facebook!]

Cheers! :lol:

-Coolname007

 

[JustinW]

Yes the uuid lines would be the only problem, but anytime I've done an Ubuntu install and checked the menu.lst it was always using root anyway. I think the rest we've all come to the same conclusion on...

 

[Coolname007]

Yes the uuid lines would be the only problem, but anytime I've done an Ubuntu install and checked the menu.lst it was always using root anyway. I think the rest we've all come to the same conclusion on...

Not quite... As is evidenced by the comments in bold in the following quote, toomuchjustin still believed that NeoGrub couldn't access an ext3 partition, simply because he wasn't able to find the Ubuntu menu.lst with the find command in the NeoGrub prompt, and because he thought 64-bit Vista was an issue...even though I knew for a fact that it could, as was proved by CG's comment in his PM to me.

Yes, I am running 64-bit Vista, and that's why I asked! I'm not going to abandon my own pet theory until I absolutely have to... Right now I'd say my working hypothesis is: Grub4Dos cannot read ext3 partitions from within Vista 64-bit, even if it is merely called by Vista 64-bit's bootloader.

If I'm right, that might be a problem for some users of Vista 64-bit and EasyBCD. That's because when you use the "add entry" feature and click the "Grub not installed box," EasyBCD installs NeoGrub with the following C:\NST\menu.lst:



At least, that's what EasyBCD did automatically in my case. As you can see from the commands, this menu.lst tells grub4dos to look for the partition that has /boot/grub/menu.lst, set it as the root, and then load that configfile and follow all its commands. On Vista 32-bit, that should work fine (except that it might be necessary to tinker with /boot/grub/menu.lst a bit--I'm not sure grub4dos supports UUID).

However, if I am correct, in grub4dos running under Vista 64-bit, both those commands can never work because grub4dos cannot read files from ext3 partitions. No amount of tinkering with /boot/grub/menu.lst will help! Grub4Dos cannot find the partition on which menu.lst is located; it cannot read menu.lst; and even if you were to copy the commands manually from /boot/grub/menu.lst into C:\NST\menu.lst (which I tried), grub4dos would not be able to load the kernel file from /boot because it cannot read from that partition! So the only way to use grub4dos with Vista 64-bit is to chainload a system, either from another disk's MBR or from the PBR of another partition.

Of course, that's all idle speculation until it's been verified by finding some other people with the same problem.

As you can see, he still believed that NeoGrub couldn't read off of an ext3 partition...at least until my last post (I hope...).

It is not from within Vista. Vista can't read linux formatted partitions. Period. It doesn't have anything to do with 32 or 64 bit. Both versions use the same bootmgr bootloader. You can have both 32 and 64 bit versions if you wish on the same system.

The lack of being able to read ext3 partitions from your description above is why I recommended ext2 for your filesystem. I have tested and used grub4dos with ext2, fat32, and ntfs. Those are the only filesystems I am sure 100% will work as expected.

And from this comment I mark in bold, it seems there still remains some doubt in your mind that NeoGrub can read off of an ext3 partition! :lol: Or at least when you made that comment, which was hopefully corrected by CG's comment in my last post...

Now back to NeoGrub. It is just like grub as described in the NeoGrub documentation in the wiki with some modifications, so yes the standard grub commands from Ubuntu's menu.lst will work. The uuid lines are what may or may not work. They are nice when they do work cause instead of telling grub where to look your giving it an exact volume serial number. Using this instead of root allowed you to use the same menu.lst without modifications.

Thanks for clearing that part up. Since it was confimed in CG's PM to me, I will take it as gospel that it is possible, after all, to copy over from your Ubuntu menu.lst into your NeoGrub one... I have learned a thing or two more about how NeoGrub works, and what it is capable of, now...so I hope this will make me more qualified the next time an issue like this comes up! :brows:

Cool, CG doesn't accept support inquiries via PM. Look at his sig for verification. He will post I'm sure if he has anything to say here in this thread.

Hope that helps clarify things.

Yes, I am aware of what his sig said, though I wasn't thinking of that when I sent him a PM! :lol: But then again, I'm not sure if my PM could be called a support question...in my mind, at least, it was more of a few simple questions on how NeoGrub works, and it turns out he did answer my PM! :brows: But I understand what you are saying, though, and it is a good point. I will certainly not make it an habit to regularly PM him about any minor issue that comes up! :lol:

Cheers.

-Coolname007